Reinventing the wheel (of flavours)

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Le Roturier
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Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:36 am

I stumbled upon this interesting article about flavour wheels.
Andrew Plotkin wrote:To fulfil the lack of descriptive clarity, people have started inventing "flavor wheels", in analogy to color and pitch wheels. It isn't a great analogy, because color and pitch both form repeating cycles, for underlying physical reasons. (Completely different reasons for color and pitch, by the way. But I won't get into that now.) Flavors don't even form a linear scale, much less one whose end matches its beginning.

Fortunately, the weakness of the analogy doesn't stop people from trying. The results are interesting. Even if they aren't wheels in the sense of the color wheel, they're organized hierarchical categories of flavor. They're usually labelled by reference, so you can either identify the categories from your own experience, or go out and find some examples.

On the other hand, none of these wheels are complete. A color wheel encompasses all pure colors (and can be extended to a 3-D solid that encompasses all colors). A pitch wheel encompasses all pitches in an octave (and if you categorize all D-flats together, the wheel encompasses all pitches). But I haven't seen a wheel which claims to describe all flavors.

Which is fine, really. The ones I've seen are for specific purposes: a chocolate flavor wheel, a coffee flavor wheel, a wine flavor wheel. The idea is to cover the flavors you're likely to find in a particular food. And each one was built by an expert in that food -- which is nice, because you can assume that the expert has tried many different varieties of that food. So you have some reason to believe that the wheel is complete, in its domain.
I've seen flavour wheels done for Wine, Brandy, Whisky, Coffee, Beer, Italian cheese, French cheese, Maple Syrup, but none for Rum.

What is your opinion of those charts? Should Rum have one?
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Capn Jimbo
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Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:14 pm

Yes we should and I have been working on one for some months now.

I won't get into great detail, but rest assured this is not anywhere as simple a task as one would think. There has been some very interesting research done, but much of it comes from exhaustive studies of descriptors and frequency of usage. Many descriptors are vague or remote, actually combinations of other more primary aromas, flowery (pun intended) and meaningless. Data must be collected from reliable sources, and I will tell you that many of those who put themselves out as advanced are guilding the lily.

Another factor is for whom the wheel is directed. This dramatically changes many of the factors and data gathered, descriptors chosen, etc. The wheels you linked, partcularly Noble's (wine) and the Whisky Institute are particularly useful. Also the Brandy to a lesser degree.

There are many, many more wheels. Some organize by taste categories, some more by stage of distillation (eg heads, tails and the like). This is yet another decision. The "taste/aroma" type are very useful for beginners, while the "stage" type leads to more understanding of the product.

I really doubt that a competent rum wheel will be available anytime soon.
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Le Roturier
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Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:11 pm

Many questions, so, if you have any element of answer, please join the discussion.
Captn Jimbo wrote:There has been some very interesting research done, but much of it comes from exhaustive studies of descriptors and frequency of usage.
From my uneducated point of view, this is a very good starting point. To be valid, a flavour wheel must , at some point, meet what expert tasters have been saying about rum. Therefore, mirror somehow their vocabulary.

What are the flaws or limitations of that approach?
Captn Jimbo wrote:The wheels you linked, partcularly Noble's (wine) and the Whisky Institute are particularly useful.
For the benefit of all readers of this forum, what are, in your opinion, the special qualities of those wheels which make them more useful than others to describe rum aromas?
There are many, many more wheels. Some organize by taste categories, some more by stage of distillation (eg heads, tails and the like).
Where can we find examples of those two categories of wheels?
Captn Jimbo wrote:Yes we should and I have been working on one for some months now.
[...]
I really doubt that a competent rum wheel will be available anytime soon.
Unless you want all the glory and/or market your own wheel, cooperation is the best strategy to achieve this goal efficiently. I'm not a expert, so I could only help you by giving beginner's impressions and administrative/technical support, but many experienced members of the rum community could contribute to this project if it was made public.
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Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:45 pm

I want all the glory... every single bit, every single shred of it! With all the fame and fortune sure to follow!

Just kidding. Maybe. Concocting a tasting wheel is a gigantic project and honestly, the kind of one that would suffer death by committee. Wheels are so varied and so personal that what it takes is a lone and obsessed foole - like me - to even consider or accomplish such a project. And trust me, the result would immediately die a slow death by a thousand cuts from the often snobbish world of rum tasting. The faults found would be endless.

I know of at least one respectable organization who started and stopped this project. But at the least, I'll try to answer your questions from my point of view...
To be valid, a flavour wheel must , at some point, meet what expert tasters have been saying about rum. Therefore, mirror somehow their vocabulary.
Yes and no. Please reread my comments above. It depends on for whom the wheel is intended. A wheel for professionals is probably unnecessary in the first place. One for newbies would benefit from simpler, more familiar, more accessible descriptors. Keep in mind that expert tasters live in another world and can't be trusted. Not for a second, lol!
For the benefit of all readers of this forum, what are, in your opinion, the special qualities of those wheels which make them more useful than others to describe rum aromas?
The wheels you chose are pretty famous and well respected, and really fairly competent for wine and whiskey. The only "special qualities" that make them useful is that they give the user some flavors and tastes to consider. A checklist if you will. The whiskey wheel has more in common with rum, but they are both worthwhile insofar as giving you something to check against and think about.
Where can we find examples of those two categories (taste category, stage of distillation) of wheels?
You posted them. The wine (taste category) and whiskey (stage of distillation).
Unless you want all the glory and/or market your own wheel, cooperation is the best strategy to achieve this goal efficiently. I'm not a expert, so I could only help you by giving beginner's impressions and administrative/technical support...
See earlier. Wanta help? Here's a project: go to say BTI, and record each and every descriptor in their rum spreadsheet for each of the 220 rums. The spreadsheet should include source (BTI), rum, and descriptor for each descriptor. Each rum, each descriptor needs to be entered. And this is just the beginning! This will need to be repeated for many other credible rum sources, reviewers and distillers which I will provide when you're done with that. Keep in mind that this will be rough data only, subject to further review and alteration using secret methods known only to me...

Thanks for your cooperation. I would appreciate it in the Excel format...
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Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:52 am

I've never actually used a flavour wheel so I'm not even sure how to begin to use these wheels but studying the wheels I see that the brandy wheel reminds me most of rum, although all of the wheels have listed descriptions that can be found in rum. Perhaps a careful combination of all of these wheels could make a wheel for rum, while not including all of the descriptions?
Le Roturier wrote:From my uneducated point of view, this is a very good starting point. To be valid, a flavour wheel must , at some point, meet what expert tasters have been saying about rum. Therefore, mirror somehow their vocabulary.

What are the flaws or limitations of that approach?
I think if you begin to mirror too much the experts' vocabulary the wheel might become somewhat difficult to understand for the non experts. Although I don't know if these wheels are targeted at other experts in the first place?

Inspecting the wine aroma wheel there are descriptions such as mercaptan, hydrogen sulfide, geranium, and ethyl acetate which I think are not very accessible to the normal reader, infact I had to just open the dictionary to see the meaning of some of those. This is one "flaw" that comes to mind.
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Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:20 pm

Bingo, Count! I rest my case. Anyone can create a wheel made up of their personal descriptors. Creating a useful wheel for the rest of us is a massive endeavor as data would both have to be collected and created by a team under knowledgable leadership.
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Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:37 pm

You good folks will have to excuse my ignorance, but could someone explain to me how the hell these wheels work? :?
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Capn Jimbo
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Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:32 pm

Just go to the wheel links provided by Le Roturier, a couple of posts above. As you will see the outer rims lists a number of aromas and/or flavors. Some wheels subdivide the outer rim aromas into subcategories like "floral", "fruit", "wood", etc.

A good way to use these wheels - and learn - is to try to begin in the innermost categories. For example decide if the aroma seems "fruity". Then move out a layer and see if you can identify what kind of fruit, say "dried" or "fresh". Finally see how specific you can get, like "orange" on the outer rim.

The wheels are simply reference tools. Oftentimes an aroma is familiar but I can't quite place it, so I'll simply scan the wheel to see if I spot that aroma. In time you will get better and better. Some aromas will be so clear to you that you'll identify them right away. Others are a bit more vague and you may be able to identify the subcategory, like fruit, but not the specific aroma.

But do this regularly and you will learn something and get much better. Just takes time.
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forrest
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Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:14 pm

Le Roturier wrote:I stumbled upon this interesting article about flavour wheels.
Well, Le Roturier, you've done it again! Keep stumbling...

Fantastic article, thank you for sharing.
Le Roturier wrote:What is your opinion of those charts? Should Rum have one?
i think that the charts are fantastic, simplistic, but fantastic;
having one for Rum (Rhum, Ron) would an excellent tool also.

Sometimes you are tasting, and you can't quite put your finger on a flavor that you are reminded of, or even a group of flavors you were unfamiliar with. i work work with quite a few experienced, deeply qualified 'tasters' with amazing abilities to 'call' aroma /flavors, and feel fortunate for their willingness to share myriads of insights. The methodology behind this skill is we are always smelling/ tasting, and take note on the particularity; when in the grocery store smell every spice jar- try to note the differences, and the similarities; do the same with fruit and the vegetables.... Is the strongest smell in your trash cantaloupe rinds from last nights dessert? --How different is that smell than the smell of the rind when you cut it?-- what are the other smells underneath the oxidizing cantaloupe rind??-- coffee grounds, wet paper...

Refining these senses (like refining ALL senses) will only amplify your ability to a] understand what you experience, and b] appreciate what you experience; the flavor wheels are only tools-- hints to remind to look for something in particular.

Here is an excerpted story about about helpful reminders while tasting from our illustrious Capn Jimbo: (Click his name for the link!)
Early on Sue Sea and I picked up a bottle of Angostura 1919, nice rum, nice price, well reviewed. Upon first swirl and sniff we both smelled something - not 20 things - but some thing. Something we knew but couldn't put our amateur noses on. We agonized over this a bit, reread a couple of relatively accessible reviewers (RnD and El Machete), and bang - it came to me of all people! I smelled bananas foster - without question - and mentioned this to Sue Sea. Then she got it, and we both agreed this really nailed it. A simple, powerful, accessible descriptor that worked then and works now.

The important thing is that our observations - and our descriptors - come out of our own experience. They may or may not agree with the high pants version, but they really work for us and other newbies with whom we've shared our rum. Sue Sea's nephew (who'd had a taste) called us up the other day and asked us "Say, what was the name of that bananas foster rum?". See what I mean? The best advice I can give you is to be yourself. You have more experience - and more descriptors - in you than you think. And whatever they are they will work for you. Here's what's important about simply using your own private impressions.

Your own experience will give you access and understanding. They work well. And they give you a base you can build upon.
As i am sure the Capn would agree: wherever the hints come from, they are all good... as long as the keep coming!

BTI,Tastings, Dave Broom, Count Silvio, The Minisrty of Rum, Capn Jimbo,Sue Sea, a coffee flavor wheel??, the trash, a supermarket isle.... help is help.

We ultimately have to decide what is helpful to us-- that is the nature of individuality.

Thie article was insightful, and the wheels are fun that will certainly be helpful (to me), and again i thank you Le Roturie.
i would also like to thank everyone for the spirited discussion.

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Capn Jimbo
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Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:17 pm

I am hardly illustrious - though I HAVE been known to glow in the dark, lol. And thank you for the kind quotations.

I forgot to add something else that is well worth the effort - and that is to create some "testers" - small capped or corked containers, preferably wide-mouthed (a screw top jar works nicely), and only large enough to hold maybe 50 ml. of nice light rum. A very good one is Matusalem white which will not interfere with the aroma ingredients you will add.

Go to the Rum University to get a list of how to make the testers, and which to make. Based on these recommendations we developed fruit, vanilla, molasses, almond, oak, caramel, cinnamon and allspice testers by infusing the samples for a week or two. The directions at RU are excellent.

These have been very useful at times. One important note is that some substances smell quite differently when in rum. And for most, how they present IN rum is the goal. For others, not.
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