Single Malt age statements
Moderators: Sñr Juan Pablo de Español, Lord Neville Crispin
- Rum Runner
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:36 pm
- Location: Waylaid in the West Indies [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
The topic of age statements on Single Malts came up on the Ministry of Rum forum, so I thought I'd bring the topic over here.
I am aware that the age stated has to be the youngest in the bottle, and that in theory older Malts can be included in the "blend".
In the case of Single Malts that carry a distillation and bottling date (either from original bottlers or independent bottlers) I would assume that very little, if any, older Malt was added.
Anyone with "inside" or "outside" knowledge of how much if any older Malt is blended into these bottlings?
Any and all thoughts,opinions, questions, answers are encouraged.
I am aware that the age stated has to be the youngest in the bottle, and that in theory older Malts can be included in the "blend".
In the case of Single Malts that carry a distillation and bottling date (either from original bottlers or independent bottlers) I would assume that very little, if any, older Malt was added.
Anyone with "inside" or "outside" knowledge of how much if any older Malt is blended into these bottlings?
Any and all thoughts,opinions, questions, answers are encouraged.
Let Debrett's Peerage be your guide
- Count Silvio
- Site Admin
- Posts: 797
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:36 pm
- How did you find Refined Vices?: I'm the Count
- Location: Tapping the Admiral.
- Contact:
I was in the belief that Single Malts were not blended at all (even inside the single distillery) and that the age in the bottle is the real age of the entire contents of that bottle. I am no whisky expert, however. This is an interesting topic you have started.
--
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
- Rum Runner
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:36 pm
- Location: Waylaid in the West Indies [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
I have been a fan of Single Malts for a long time, but I am not scholar by any means.
I too would presume that a Malt labeled 10, 12, 15, etc., would be entirely of a single year. Of course the Distillery would blend the different casks of that years produce to provide a sastisfactory taste profile in keeping with House Style. Certain casks may be held for further ageing, and casks that mature outside the house style could be disposed of through sales to outside blenders and bottlers.
Scotch producers are not obligated to state an age on the label. If they do state age, current regulations (I believe) state the age on the bottle be the youngest in the bottle, and does not forbid the addition of older Malt to the final product.
Angelsword brought up the topic of "Single Cane" on the rum forum, which logically led to the discussion of Single Malt. I felt that maybe the Administrator of the rum forum would not be comfortable with the thread turning into a Whisky discussion.
Maybe the good Count will allow a bit of leeway here if Angelsword and others wish to broaden the thread here to include the concept of "Single Cane Rum" as it involves similarities or differences to Single Malt.
In my limited web research of the subject I came across this trinity of websites with a truly eyeopening amount of fabulous information on Malt Whiskys.
I too would presume that a Malt labeled 10, 12, 15, etc., would be entirely of a single year. Of course the Distillery would blend the different casks of that years produce to provide a sastisfactory taste profile in keeping with House Style. Certain casks may be held for further ageing, and casks that mature outside the house style could be disposed of through sales to outside blenders and bottlers.
Scotch producers are not obligated to state an age on the label. If they do state age, current regulations (I believe) state the age on the bottle be the youngest in the bottle, and does not forbid the addition of older Malt to the final product.
Angelsword brought up the topic of "Single Cane" on the rum forum, which logically led to the discussion of Single Malt. I felt that maybe the Administrator of the rum forum would not be comfortable with the thread turning into a Whisky discussion.
Maybe the good Count will allow a bit of leeway here if Angelsword and others wish to broaden the thread here to include the concept of "Single Cane Rum" as it involves similarities or differences to Single Malt.
In my limited web research of the subject I came across this trinity of websites with a truly eyeopening amount of fabulous information on Malt Whiskys.
Last edited by Rum Runner on Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let Debrett's Peerage be your guide
- Count Silvio
- Site Admin
- Posts: 797
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:36 pm
- How did you find Refined Vices?: I'm the Count
- Location: Tapping the Admiral.
- Contact:
I encourage this kind of discussion so if you had any doubts about such a topic on MoR, you may have leeway here.
I think similar restrictions should be applied to "Single Cane Rum" that Single Malts currently have if there was a product like that. Obviously without restrictions the term would not mean much. It is certainly an interesting concept worth thinking about.
Hmm, perhaps Baron Rupert Von Liberis has something to say about this.
I think similar restrictions should be applied to "Single Cane Rum" that Single Malts currently have if there was a product like that. Obviously without restrictions the term would not mean much. It is certainly an interesting concept worth thinking about.
Hmm, perhaps Baron Rupert Von Liberis has something to say about this.
--
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
- Rum Runner
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:36 pm
- Location: Waylaid in the West Indies [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
Thank you for proceeding with this thread Count.Count Silvio wrote:I encourage this kind of discussion so if you had any doubts about such a topic on MoR, you may have leeway here.
I think similar restrictions should be applied to "Single Cane Rum" that Single Malts currently have if there was a product like that. Obviously without restrictions the term would not mean much. It is certainly an interesting concept worth thinking about.
Hmm, perhaps Baron Rupert Von Liberis has something to say about this.
If one were to muse about the concept of a "Single Cane Rum" along the same lines as Single Malt, then I think the unmodified word "Cane" is troublesome. With "Malt" at least we know how the barley was processed. If we take it that rum comes from some sort of cane by-product, the unmodified word "Cane" does nothing to further define what's in the bottle.
Let Debrett's Peerage be your guide
- Count Silvio
- Site Admin
- Posts: 797
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:36 pm
- How did you find Refined Vices?: I'm the Count
- Location: Tapping the Admiral.
- Contact:
Perhaps then it should not be allowed to be made from any kind of by-product but strictly from sugar cane juice. There appears to be already atleast one product that calls itself Single Cane Rum, that is made from sugar cane juice.
--
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
- Rum Runner
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:36 pm
- Location: Waylaid in the West Indies [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
It appears there was a product labeled "Single Cane Rum" from Mexico under the Porfidio marque. The link to Ron Porfidio in the link you provided above ends in a dead domaine. Profidio was a producer of very high end Tequila/Agave spirits supposedly.
After some research on the web I found much colourful info on Herr Grassl of Porfidio and his experiences. He seems to be a bit of a P.T. Barnum in the spirits marketing business. Here is the link to his latest incarnation
I wonder if Angelsword is aware of this brief "ascension" of the term "Single Cane"?
If we take your proposal Count and define "Single Cane" as Rum produced (in an English speaking Country) from a single distillery and only from fresh juice, Then how shall we term single distillery produce from cane syrup or molasses?
After some research on the web I found much colourful info on Herr Grassl of Porfidio and his experiences. He seems to be a bit of a P.T. Barnum in the spirits marketing business. Here is the link to his latest incarnation
I wonder if Angelsword is aware of this brief "ascension" of the term "Single Cane"?
If we take your proposal Count and define "Single Cane" as Rum produced (in an English speaking Country) from a single distillery and only from fresh juice, Then how shall we term single distillery produce from cane syrup or molasses?
Last edited by Rum Runner on Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let Debrett's Peerage be your guide
- AngelSword
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:24 pm
- Location: inspecting the cask interior
- Contact:
I was not aware that the term "single cane" had been used by Porfidio. I wonder if it is used as a trademark and papers were filed. It may be used descriptively. Descriptions cannot be trademarks.
But the question remains as to what term might describe rums from a single distillery instead of a blend.
But the question remains as to what term might describe rums from a single distillery instead of a blend.
- Rum Runner
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:36 pm
- Location: Waylaid in the West Indies [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
I do not know if Porfidio has trademarked "Single Cane".AngelSword wrote:I was not aware that the term "single cane" had been used by Porfidio. I wonder if it is used as a trademark and papers were filed. It may be used descriptively. Descriptions cannot be trademarks.
But the question remains as to what term might describe rums from a single distillery instead of a blend.
How about the term "Distilled, Aged and Bottled by XXXX"?
Let Debrett's Peerage be your guide
- AngelSword
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:24 pm
- Location: inspecting the cask interior
- Contact:
Too Obvious!!!Rum Runner wrote:How about the term "Distilled, Aged and Bottled by XXXX"?
- Count Silvio
- Site Admin
- Posts: 797
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:36 pm
- How did you find Refined Vices?: I'm the Count
- Location: Tapping the Admiral.
- Contact:
That is the problem isn't it?Rum Runner wrote: If we take your proposal Count and define "Single Cane" as Rum produced (in an English speaking Country) from a single distillery and only from fresh juice, Then how shall we term single distillery produce from cane syrup or molasses?
I think Angelsword is looking for a more attractive single term for marketing. How about "Singe Distillery/Estate/Plantation Rum" and Single Cane if it is made from fresh juice?Rum Runner wrote:How about the term "Distilled, Aged and Bottled by XXXX"?
I will have to think about this more accurately by a glass of good Single Malt.
--
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
- Rum Runner
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:36 pm
- Location: Waylaid in the West Indies [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
Rum Runner wrote:How about the term "Distilled, Aged and Bottled by XXXX"?
Marketing firms are paid handsomely for conjuring up such notions...What is our ransom to be in undertaking this endeavour Count?Count Silvio wrote:I think Angelsword is looking for a more attractive single term for marketing. How about "Singe Distillery/Estate/Plantation Rum" and Single Cane if it is made from fresh juice?
I will have to think about this more accurately by a glass of good Single Malt.
Let Debrett's Peerage be your guide
- Rum Runner
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:36 pm
- Location: Waylaid in the West Indies [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
I might propose the term "Natural Cane Rum" to distinguish juice made rum (from a single distillery) from processed cane byproduct rum.
This eliminates the un-sexy term "juice", as well as the copycat term "single" (from the Scotch trade) in the designation, while maintaining an image of purity and integrity.
It also "blends" nicely with somebodys company name.
This eliminates the un-sexy term "juice", as well as the copycat term "single" (from the Scotch trade) in the designation, while maintaining an image of purity and integrity.
It also "blends" nicely with somebodys company name.
Let Debrett's Peerage be your guide
- Count Silvio
- Site Admin
- Posts: 797
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:36 pm
- How did you find Refined Vices?: I'm the Count
- Location: Tapping the Admiral.
- Contact:
A cask of fine rum or whiskey!Rum Runner wrote:Marketing firms are paid handsomely for conjuring up such notions...What is our ransom to be in undertaking this endeavour Count?
You could be onto something but I cannot help but get the image that there is also "Un-natural Cane Rum." What about Pure Cane Rum?Rum Runner wrote:I might propose the term "Natural Cane Rum" to distinguish juice made rum (from a single distillery) from processed cane byproduct rum.
This eliminates the un-sexy term "juice", as well as the copycat term "single" (from the Scotch trade) in the designation, while maintaining an image of purity and integrity.
It also "blends" nicely with somebodys company name.
Perhaps in the end we can have a poll with the best suggestions and cast our final votes.
--
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
- Rum Runner
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:36 pm
- Location: Waylaid in the West Indies [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
I find your suggestion equally acceptable.You could be onto something but I cannot help but get the image that there is also "Un-natural Cane Rum." What about Pure Cane Rum?
Perhaps in the end we can have a poll with the best suggestions and cast our final votes.
And the poll idea is splendid.
Let Debrett's Peerage be your guide
- Count Silvio
- Site Admin
- Posts: 797
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:36 pm
- How did you find Refined Vices?: I'm the Count
- Location: Tapping the Admiral.
- Contact:
I just had a funny thought. Could Rhum Agricole made by a single distillery be called Single Agricole? Would these Single XXX rules/descriptions also apply to Cachaça if they were used to describe rum products?
--
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
- Rum Runner
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:36 pm
- Location: Waylaid in the West Indies [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
I doubt that the term single would be allowed inside the AOC Martinique marque, But I see no reason why other Agricole producers could not use it. In use I'm not sure the term single would further define agricole because as far as I can tell there is no multi-still "blended" agricole on the market. I'm open to being made aware otherwise.Count Silvio wrote:I just had a funny thought. Could Rhum Agricole made by a single distillery be called Single Agricole? Would these Single XXX rules/descriptions also apply to Cachaça if they were used to describe rum products?
To your question about applying to Cachca...I'm afraid I don't understand the question. Maybe you could help me there?
Let Debrett's Peerage be your guide
- Count Silvio
- Site Admin
- Posts: 797
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:36 pm
- How did you find Refined Vices?: I'm the Count
- Location: Tapping the Admiral.
- Contact:
As in Single Cachaça > Cachaça made by a single distillery, or are they always made by a single distillery?
--
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
Slouching on the reliable old leather recliner.
- Rum Runner
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:36 pm
- Location: Waylaid in the West Indies [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
Ah. Now I understand. Well, you have me there. I don't have enough knowledge of Cachaca. Perhaps our man in South America has the scoop.
Let Debrett's Peerage be your guide
- Baron Rupert Liberis
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:43 am
- Location: Busyshire
- Contact:
Count Silvio wrote:I encourage this kind of discussion so if you had any doubts about such a topic on MoR, you may have leeway here.
I think similar restrictions should be applied to "Single Cane Rum" that Single Malts currently have if there was a product like that. Obviously without restrictions the term would not mean much. It is certainly an interesting concept worth thinking about.
Hmm, perhaps Baron Rupert Von Liberis has something to say about this.
Hmmmmmm!
My knowledge of Rum is entirely lacking in regard to this, yet I feel no shame! There are far too many good single malt whisky's out there yet to be tasted to do more than trifle with other spirits.
As for the age stated on Single Malts, it is always the length of time the whisky has remained in the barrel, give or take a few months. This why you get such oddities as 37yr old, or 32yr old malts, that can then sit in bottles for a few decades and reach outlandish prices.
May I offer my apologies for the prolonged absence whilst here, I've been busy taking care of business. I do hope that my late comments will not deter you from continuing on the subject of 'that sailors drink'.
There are two things a Highlander likes naked, and one of them is malt whisky.
Scottish proverb
Scottish proverb
Single Malt Whisky[/b] A basic guide to single malt whisky I knocked up
Follow me on Twitter
-
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:23 pm
- How did you find Refined Vices?: through another forum [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
I thought I'd reply to this post after seeing it, as I am somewhat connected to whisky industry and perhaps can offer some additional information here..
Single malt = simply means malt whisky, from one distillery. Typically original distillery owner bottlings are blends of malt whisky of different ages, and many different barrels.
Single malt whisky with an age statement = malt whisky from one distillery, many barrels blended & married together. The YOUNGEST whisky gone into the bottling is what the age statement refers to, i.e. Caol Ila 12yo - means youngest whisky barrels blended into this are 12 years old.
If necessary or so desired for taste, any amount of older Caol Ila single malt can be mixed into the blend for taste consistency or desired character. For example, when Ardbeg released their "Introducing 10 years old" around 2001, the distillery people told me that even 25 year old whisky was added to the mixture to create the flavour profile. Of course distilleries try these days to avoid excessively adding older whisky to such a product, simply because they can typically sell these older whiskies as such - for a far greater price.
In some cases, such as Ardbeg Uigeadail, what the distillery owner did was apparently to marry quite young (possibly less than 10yo) whisky with really old casks: reason was that due to the distillery being closed for a number of years and warehouse being poorly managed by previous owners, the very old casks had lost so much alcohol that they could no longer be sold as single malt scotch whisky (the alcohol content had dropped below 40%, which is the legal limit).
Single malt whisky which gives just bottling date and distillation date, but bottles number in thousands = typically this is a mixture of malt whisky barrels from one single distillery that contain whisky distilled at same time. As far as I know, no older whisky is added to such a bottling.
Single cask Single Malts = here we are truly talking of unique products that come from a single barrel of malt whisky from one distillery. Depending on the design of the barrel and the age of the whisky, the number of bottles vary typically between 100 - 600. Occasionally two or three casks are mixed; in this case the bottle shows clear reference to the number of casks used. Such bottlings are typically released at cask strength, which can be over 60% of alcohol for older bottlings. Nowadays almost all if not indeed all Scotch malt whisky is diluted to 63,5% (I recall this off the top of my head) or around that strength before being put into a barrel - this means that in the future no cask strength whisky will attain such alcohol strengths as some of the older ones do (example, Rosebank 25yo, bottled at cask strength of 61.4%).
Often single cask single malts are bottled by independent bottlers who own parcels of various whiskies, and bottle them with their own label (still usually informing their customers of which distillery the whisky originates from). Such indie-bottlers are for example Douglas Laing & Co., Cadenheads, Art of Whisky etc. On occasion a distillery also may release single cask whisky, and these unique products are much sought after.
Apart from these classifications, there are Vatted malts (malt whiskies of various distilleries blended together), and of course Blended whiskies (a blend of various malts, with a varying amount of cheaper grain whisky included).
Single malt = simply means malt whisky, from one distillery. Typically original distillery owner bottlings are blends of malt whisky of different ages, and many different barrels.
Single malt whisky with an age statement = malt whisky from one distillery, many barrels blended & married together. The YOUNGEST whisky gone into the bottling is what the age statement refers to, i.e. Caol Ila 12yo - means youngest whisky barrels blended into this are 12 years old.
If necessary or so desired for taste, any amount of older Caol Ila single malt can be mixed into the blend for taste consistency or desired character. For example, when Ardbeg released their "Introducing 10 years old" around 2001, the distillery people told me that even 25 year old whisky was added to the mixture to create the flavour profile. Of course distilleries try these days to avoid excessively adding older whisky to such a product, simply because they can typically sell these older whiskies as such - for a far greater price.
In some cases, such as Ardbeg Uigeadail, what the distillery owner did was apparently to marry quite young (possibly less than 10yo) whisky with really old casks: reason was that due to the distillery being closed for a number of years and warehouse being poorly managed by previous owners, the very old casks had lost so much alcohol that they could no longer be sold as single malt scotch whisky (the alcohol content had dropped below 40%, which is the legal limit).
Single malt whisky which gives just bottling date and distillation date, but bottles number in thousands = typically this is a mixture of malt whisky barrels from one single distillery that contain whisky distilled at same time. As far as I know, no older whisky is added to such a bottling.
Single cask Single Malts = here we are truly talking of unique products that come from a single barrel of malt whisky from one distillery. Depending on the design of the barrel and the age of the whisky, the number of bottles vary typically between 100 - 600. Occasionally two or three casks are mixed; in this case the bottle shows clear reference to the number of casks used. Such bottlings are typically released at cask strength, which can be over 60% of alcohol for older bottlings. Nowadays almost all if not indeed all Scotch malt whisky is diluted to 63,5% (I recall this off the top of my head) or around that strength before being put into a barrel - this means that in the future no cask strength whisky will attain such alcohol strengths as some of the older ones do (example, Rosebank 25yo, bottled at cask strength of 61.4%).
Often single cask single malts are bottled by independent bottlers who own parcels of various whiskies, and bottle them with their own label (still usually informing their customers of which distillery the whisky originates from). Such indie-bottlers are for example Douglas Laing & Co., Cadenheads, Art of Whisky etc. On occasion a distillery also may release single cask whisky, and these unique products are much sought after.
Apart from these classifications, there are Vatted malts (malt whiskies of various distilleries blended together), and of course Blended whiskies (a blend of various malts, with a varying amount of cheaper grain whisky included).
-
- Information
-
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests